Here's the thing about civil disobedience, which is what this is.
It's against the law.
So was the civil rights movement in the American south.
So was Tank Man in Tienanmen.
This is not about protesting. The purpose of civil disobedience is to force an oppressive government's hand- to make a visible and public display to the undecided middle of how far they'll go to crush dissent.
Yes , they're breaking the law. This is not the same as being morally wrong, or on the wrong side of history.
Yeah well how do you deal with I-5 being blocked because the government is genociding black people and BLM is standing up to power? Hmm? How do you deal with that? You can’t.
It’s a fake claim but the freeway is still blocked so now we are just letting every activist piece of shit do Tiananmen Square whenever they want based on a horseshit argument?
No, man. I agree with the truckers 100% but we are paving a terrible road here.
We're not "letting." That's what civil disobedience means. When you do this, if you're righteous, you accept the legal consequences for your actions, like the people who sat in restaurants and busses and yes, blocked roads and were arrested.
I understand the consequences of occupying like this are annoying and cause disruption. The economic disruption is intentional.
This shit is bad, Kevin. And it's leading to a full on nightmare.
It's this or violence, and you don't want it done that way if you don't have to.
Okay but that’s a different thing. You’re saying part of the point is being taken away by the cops but people are opposing the cops taking them away.
I don’t know man. If BLM blocks the freeway because a drug dealer gets shot I am going to be fucking heated. I don’t want to have a rule of law that depends on if I agree with the people doing the blockage.
We should invade the middle of Canada. I actually think that. If Russia gets Ukraine then we get the middle of Canada.
I understand how you feel, and the consistent comparison to BLM is important, because fuck those guys.
The rule of law IS important, and I'll never say it isn't. But it isn't important above all else, and this is a worthy situation.
You're comfortable with the use of force in war and with the pursuit of war to advance just cause. You've said so.
At what point is something at a far lower threshold reasonable against a tyrannical government? Were the Boston Tea Partiers assholes because they would have ruined your morning cuppa?
I personally think it would be appropriate to violently overthrow the government (I’m not gonna do it FBI agents watching I’m just saying that it’s justified), but I’m in the minority on this so we aren’t doing it.
This means that we have to win over people. I think the blockade is winning people but maybe not as much as we think?
Maybe the force required to end this will win people? Okay. I’m listening. That might work.
It’s a tough call. This is about winning votes. This isn’t about overthrowing the government.
>> Maybe the force required to end this will win people? Okay. I’m listening. That might work.
That's what I'm saying.
It's like the tiny but important act of civil disobedience in not wearing a mask. You get one of two possible outcomes: they don't enforce it, in which case everyone gradually understands that it's not real, or they are hassled into enforcing it and possibly looking like pricks for doing it, like to a mentally disabled child or something, and sheep sentiment shifts away from it.
Well I hear you on that, that’s where this ends, but we can’t tiptoe into a civil war. Either it starts or it doesn’t. At this point there is still a ‘hearts and minds’ aspect.
This is to avoid a civil war becoming a shooting war, or to at least be on the right side of history (peaceful and nonviolent demonstration) if the state does make it a shooting war.
I mean this is kinda an argument for my Woodstock idea.
If you want to have a civil war have 600,000 people, over the course of a few weeks, meet up in a field in the middle of nowhere and exchange contact information. That’s an army. They are fucked if that happens.
I get it, and you're not wrong, but Canada is past that.
The point of an occupation is that it can't be ignored. Your idea can be ignored by a government.
The truckers don't WANT to organize an insurrection. They want to be heard.
I promise you if Trudeau weren't a douchecanoe and met with the protest leaders, actually negotiated with them, and at least made their complaints heard, they probably WOULD disperse.
Were you cool with what happened to the Bonus Army?
No, Trudeau meeting with people is going to be a photo op. Useless.
There’s no negotiating with these people which is why I understand the protest but the goal has to be removal of the people who can’t be negotiated with via persuasion.
Trudeau is going to give you horseshit about the environment and people of color no matter what. That is a brick wall. There is no negotiating.
Michael Malice made the point about the civil rights disobedience of the law is that it forced such a disproportionate response from the government that the govt lost their legitimacy. That’s what I hope is happening here. If the convoy moves onto some fairgrounds and plays hobby horse for several months, it can be ignored. This can’t. The civil war has been tiptoeing onto us. It’s the fascist oligarch’s ratchet effect. Something’s gotta give…
This is a fine argument. Michael Malice is smart and I love him. Long story about him following me on Twitter before I was permanently deleted.
I was quite annoyed by Douglas Murray’s (Douglas who I also love) piece for Bari that referenced Michael’s helicopter jokes as inappropriate. I’d heard it already during their podcast.
Maybe I’m biased because my whole life is helicopter jokes.
(it’s about assassinating communists if you don’t have time)
Here’s the bottom line. The reaction from Trudeau will not be *optically* disproportionate and it won’t be covered anyways.
They will just arrest people and tow away the trucks. Trudeau is not going to mow people down with 50s. That’s not happening.
If there was a chance of cops opening fire on the trucks and that being broadcast then I’d say okay. But that’s not happening so this strategy is null and void.
This is about tactics, people. This is about tactics. I am not sure that this tactic is the best one. That’s my view.
Apparently 2,000 firearms were stolen/reported missing in Ottawa on Sunday and the former RCMP sniper that quit Trudeau, and now runs security for the truckers, got a tip the guns will be used for a false flag.
We should also be able to distinguish between a few streets in downtown Ottowa, and blocking the Ambassador bridge. I get it if you think both is wrong, but one is more wrong than the other. The Ottowa thing is a proper protest that also blocks roads and must be obnoxious to local residents. The bridge blockade only way of protest is to block traffic.
I don't think the Ottowa protest is a lot worse than the Occupy protest we had a decade ago. And if one is OK, then the other is too. I guess Kevin, you would say neither was OK, and that is fine. I just ask for a little consistency.
I don't think it is arbitrary. It is more a matter of degree.
Every protest is going to be obnoxious (that and being mostly pointless is why I hate most protests). But we can only handle so much obnoxiousness if we want society to function. The level of obnoxiousness at the bridge is just sky high. I am sure the Ottowa protest is obnoxious to local residents, but the harm is nowhere near the harm of bridge blockades. Also in Ottowa there is tens of thousands of protestes and if we allow them a little obnoxiousness each, it is not too bad.
The obnoxiousness is also why the truckers should not have honked for four days straight when they got to Ottowa. It is just too much.
Yeah man I kinda agree with this and I think we’re going to get lynched as anti-truck traitors.
😂😂😂
(this is why we have guns because if this is a civil war they don’t get a warning honk and it’s not a protest we just start clipping people and Trudeau gets the Gaddafi treatment)
Yeah plus I think the protest with every town cheering as they drive by for 2 weeks is way better. Maybe not.
I 100% agree with the truckers so I want this to work. I don’t know maybe the road convoy fades after time and doesn’t have the same impact.
I feel like the aerial view of fairgrounds with 15,000 trucks and a freedom party that lasts 3 months is just as good. You could have a concert etc etc etc like Woodstock.
I could be wrong here. This isn’t one of my firm opinions like my belief that Democrats are child molesting racists.
But most of Canada would be able to ignore all that to death. Kind of like the MSM ignores the Washington March for Live. I am afraid no one outside some overly online right wingers would know of that type of protest.
Yeah that’s the counterargument. Makes sense. But what about the ‘get out the vote’ factor of having a parade for 6 months through all of the small towns?
Zuckerberg spent $400 million getting out the vote with sorts of petty nonsense, and also crimes, because it works.
Bottom line is they have to be removed and we should try everything to remove them peacefully with voters. I kinda like my plan but maybe I’m wrong.
I can tell you for sure this will be over in 2 weeks because the truckers put themselves in a position where their protest can be ended.
2 weeks, I am not so sure. It is independent groups, and if you take them down at the Ambassador Bridge, they can pop up somewhere else. It could turn out like fighting an insurgency.
Here's the thing about civil disobedience, which is what this is.
It's against the law.
So was the civil rights movement in the American south.
So was Tank Man in Tienanmen.
This is not about protesting. The purpose of civil disobedience is to force an oppressive government's hand- to make a visible and public display to the undecided middle of how far they'll go to crush dissent.
Yes , they're breaking the law. This is not the same as being morally wrong, or on the wrong side of history.
Yeah well how do you deal with I-5 being blocked because the government is genociding black people and BLM is standing up to power? Hmm? How do you deal with that? You can’t.
It’s a fake claim but the freeway is still blocked so now we are just letting every activist piece of shit do Tiananmen Square whenever they want based on a horseshit argument?
No, man. I agree with the truckers 100% but we are paving a terrible road here.
(omg the puns won’t stop)
We're not "letting." That's what civil disobedience means. When you do this, if you're righteous, you accept the legal consequences for your actions, like the people who sat in restaurants and busses and yes, blocked roads and were arrested.
I understand the consequences of occupying like this are annoying and cause disruption. The economic disruption is intentional.
This shit is bad, Kevin. And it's leading to a full on nightmare.
It's this or violence, and you don't want it done that way if you don't have to.
Okay but that’s a different thing. You’re saying part of the point is being taken away by the cops but people are opposing the cops taking them away.
I don’t know man. If BLM blocks the freeway because a drug dealer gets shot I am going to be fucking heated. I don’t want to have a rule of law that depends on if I agree with the people doing the blockage.
We should invade the middle of Canada. I actually think that. If Russia gets Ukraine then we get the middle of Canada.
I understand how you feel, and the consistent comparison to BLM is important, because fuck those guys.
The rule of law IS important, and I'll never say it isn't. But it isn't important above all else, and this is a worthy situation.
You're comfortable with the use of force in war and with the pursuit of war to advance just cause. You've said so.
At what point is something at a far lower threshold reasonable against a tyrannical government? Were the Boston Tea Partiers assholes because they would have ruined your morning cuppa?
Yeah I don’t like the Boston Tea Party reference.
We either overthrow the government or we don’t.
I personally think it would be appropriate to violently overthrow the government (I’m not gonna do it FBI agents watching I’m just saying that it’s justified), but I’m in the minority on this so we aren’t doing it.
This means that we have to win over people. I think the blockade is winning people but maybe not as much as we think?
Maybe the force required to end this will win people? Okay. I’m listening. That might work.
It’s a tough call. This is about winning votes. This isn’t about overthrowing the government.
>> Maybe the force required to end this will win people? Okay. I’m listening. That might work.
That's what I'm saying.
It's like the tiny but important act of civil disobedience in not wearing a mask. You get one of two possible outcomes: they don't enforce it, in which case everyone gradually understands that it's not real, or they are hassled into enforcing it and possibly looking like pricks for doing it, like to a mentally disabled child or something, and sheep sentiment shifts away from it.
I get what you’re saying but It’s not a “protest”. It’s a counterattack in a civil war. Much different standard.
Well I hear you on that, that’s where this ends, but we can’t tiptoe into a civil war. Either it starts or it doesn’t. At this point there is still a ‘hearts and minds’ aspect.
This is to avoid a civil war becoming a shooting war, or to at least be on the right side of history (peaceful and nonviolent demonstration) if the state does make it a shooting war.
I mean this is kinda an argument for my Woodstock idea.
If you want to have a civil war have 600,000 people, over the course of a few weeks, meet up in a field in the middle of nowhere and exchange contact information. That’s an army. They are fucked if that happens.
I get it, and you're not wrong, but Canada is past that.
The point of an occupation is that it can't be ignored. Your idea can be ignored by a government.
The truckers don't WANT to organize an insurrection. They want to be heard.
I promise you if Trudeau weren't a douchecanoe and met with the protest leaders, actually negotiated with them, and at least made their complaints heard, they probably WOULD disperse.
Were you cool with what happened to the Bonus Army?
No, Trudeau meeting with people is going to be a photo op. Useless.
There’s no negotiating with these people which is why I understand the protest but the goal has to be removal of the people who can’t be negotiated with via persuasion.
Trudeau is going to give you horseshit about the environment and people of color no matter what. That is a brick wall. There is no negotiating.
Michael Malice made the point about the civil rights disobedience of the law is that it forced such a disproportionate response from the government that the govt lost their legitimacy. That’s what I hope is happening here. If the convoy moves onto some fairgrounds and plays hobby horse for several months, it can be ignored. This can’t. The civil war has been tiptoeing onto us. It’s the fascist oligarch’s ratchet effect. Something’s gotta give…
This is a fine argument. Michael Malice is smart and I love him. Long story about him following me on Twitter before I was permanently deleted.
I was quite annoyed by Douglas Murray’s (Douglas who I also love) piece for Bari that referenced Michael’s helicopter jokes as inappropriate. I’d heard it already during their podcast.
Maybe I’m biased because my whole life is helicopter jokes.
(it’s about assassinating communists if you don’t have time)
Here’s the bottom line. The reaction from Trudeau will not be *optically* disproportionate and it won’t be covered anyways.
They will just arrest people and tow away the trucks. Trudeau is not going to mow people down with 50s. That’s not happening.
If there was a chance of cops opening fire on the trucks and that being broadcast then I’d say okay. But that’s not happening so this strategy is null and void.
This is about tactics, people. This is about tactics. I am not sure that this tactic is the best one. That’s my view.
🚁🚁🚁🚁🚁🚁
🚁🚁🚁🚁🚁🚁
It doesn’t have to be raining 50’s. It could just be locking too many out of their bank accounts. You never know
Yeah that’s a fair point. It’ll just be banks.
Apparently 2,000 firearms were stolen/reported missing in Ottawa on Sunday and the former RCMP sniper that quit Trudeau, and now runs security for the truckers, got a tip the guns will be used for a false flag.
Check his YT video.
A thousand times this.
I want my $80 back you piece of shit.
LMAO you’re the best
😂😂
Oh, ya tryin' to get over on the man by .01 I see how you are ;-)
Processing fee
We should also be able to distinguish between a few streets in downtown Ottowa, and blocking the Ambassador bridge. I get it if you think both is wrong, but one is more wrong than the other. The Ottowa thing is a proper protest that also blocks roads and must be obnoxious to local residents. The bridge blockade only way of protest is to block traffic.
I don't think the Ottowa protest is a lot worse than the Occupy protest we had a decade ago. And if one is OK, then the other is too. I guess Kevin, you would say neither was OK, and that is fine. I just ask for a little consistency.
Yeah I’m lazy so I didn’t break that down but I promise you I thought of it.
Blocking the bridge is significant. I’m much less opposed to blocking streets in Ottawa which is a city jam-packed with useless non-contributors.
I still don’t want streets blocked but if you’re just preventing government workers from going about their day I’m MUCH more okay with that.
I guess it’s arbitrary but that bridge needs to be open.
I don't think it is arbitrary. It is more a matter of degree.
Every protest is going to be obnoxious (that and being mostly pointless is why I hate most protests). But we can only handle so much obnoxiousness if we want society to function. The level of obnoxiousness at the bridge is just sky high. I am sure the Ottowa protest is obnoxious to local residents, but the harm is nowhere near the harm of bridge blockades. Also in Ottowa there is tens of thousands of protestes and if we allow them a little obnoxiousness each, it is not too bad.
The obnoxiousness is also why the truckers should not have honked for four days straight when they got to Ottowa. It is just too much.
Yeah man I kinda agree with this and I think we’re going to get lynched as anti-truck traitors.
😂😂😂
(this is why we have guns because if this is a civil war they don’t get a warning honk and it’s not a protest we just start clipping people and Trudeau gets the Gaddafi treatment)
I'm with you dude. No road blocky. It's a righteous protest, not a civil war. We need to keep it that way.
Sorry - the global civil war began in spring of 2020. It's just been a rather one-sided war until recently.
Yeah plus I think the protest with every town cheering as they drive by for 2 weeks is way better. Maybe not.
I 100% agree with the truckers so I want this to work. I don’t know maybe the road convoy fades after time and doesn’t have the same impact.
I feel like the aerial view of fairgrounds with 15,000 trucks and a freedom party that lasts 3 months is just as good. You could have a concert etc etc etc like Woodstock.
I could be wrong here. This isn’t one of my firm opinions like my belief that Democrats are child molesting racists.
But most of Canada would be able to ignore all that to death. Kind of like the MSM ignores the Washington March for Live. I am afraid no one outside some overly online right wingers would know of that type of protest.
Yeah that’s the counterargument. Makes sense. But what about the ‘get out the vote’ factor of having a parade for 6 months through all of the small towns?
Zuckerberg spent $400 million getting out the vote with sorts of petty nonsense, and also crimes, because it works.
Bottom line is they have to be removed and we should try everything to remove them peacefully with voters. I kinda like my plan but maybe I’m wrong.
I can tell you for sure this will be over in 2 weeks because the truckers put themselves in a position where their protest can be ended.
2 weeks, I am not so sure. It is independent groups, and if you take them down at the Ambassador Bridge, they can pop up somewhere else. It could turn out like fighting an insurgency.
And the truckers seem to be winning:
1) Doug Ford Is Done With Mandates https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cApmSKpW9kw
2) Firing your coach mid-season, https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/sloly-ottawa-resigns-behaviour-leadership-1.6352295 - yes yes, The CBC, I know, but sometimes you gotta do some reconnaissance behind enemy lines.